tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5641117771707843067.post1926131592725747497..comments2024-02-05T15:01:44.563-05:00Comments on Cleveland Poetics: a place for cleveland's writers and readers: Words Are Words Attitudes Is Everything: Down With, Not Up In Armsmichael salingerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14717310933948991992noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5641117771707843067.post-61771361299687427982009-04-21T10:15:00.000-04:002009-04-21T10:15:00.000-04:00Whoo-boy. It looks like I missed some major debati...Whoo-boy. It looks like I missed some major debating! <br /><br />Some thoughts, which may or may not be appropriate.<br /><br />1)"Then there are folks who respond by saying the "problem", the question, is artifice. They want to enjoy in their own fashion clever, sweet, sad or funny short, three-lined poems. And they don’t mind if it is in theory, haiku or not."<br /><br />Yes, this is true, and nobody is stopping these people from composing these poems. The issue, of course, comes when they insist that these poems are something they are not. "If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music will not flourish." -Confucius<br /><br />2) re: "I don’t think it is anti-academic to sidle up with folks who accept a book of dog haiku or baseball haiku for what they are,"<br /><br />There is a difference between Marsh's "Dog-Ku" which, by his own admission, is "Not a very serious book." and Cor van den Heuvel's anthology "Baseball Haiku," which has actual haiku written in Japanese by Japanese poets next to haiku by some of the best Western writers of the form. There is a complete difference in attitude and approach to the two books, and the two really cannot be compared on any but the surface level.<br /><br />3) Re " clever mindshifts. Witty escapism. Something to read and muse on. Something fans of baseball and dogs can sink their teeth into without having to work. In short, diversion."<br /><br />Yes, but is this what we as poets want poetry to become, clever mindshifts and diversions? <br /><br />4) Re:"It would really take a serious investment to attempt any true investigation. So much so, that some believe it can only ever be opinion."<br /><br />But to not participate in that investigation, or to form an opinion without having even begun that investigation, or to assume that one knows something without investigating it would be ignorance. It might behove us to think of haiku in terms of "practice," not as a form to complete, but more as an idea to journey towards.<br /><br />5) Re: "academic vrsus…well they don’t say vrsus what. It is the minority which sees the rift."<br /><br />In my experience, on this blog as well as in my studies, academics (teachers, students, MFA Program graduates, etc.) tend to be as ignorant about haiku as non-academics. Unless the term "academic" is taken to it's broadest meaning--someone who studies something--those in the universities tend to be as ignorant, if not more so, than those outside of them.pottygokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03530399360457624135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5641117771707843067.post-33495914390301773352009-04-18T13:00:00.000-04:002009-04-18T13:00:00.000-04:00I pretty much agree with what you're saying, Geoff...I pretty much agree with what you're saying, Geoff. I guess in the "debate" that got carried away I had a few objectives.<br /><br />1) to defend a poet who (even tho I didn't for a moment think the poem in question was a textbook haiku - or the "most" anything) I felt was being dismissed and belittled. I found some of the comments directed toward that poet (Ben Rader's and some of yours in particular) were quite instructive and generously given. I entered the fray when I sensed mean-spiritedness creeping in (I don't mean from you). <br /><br />2) I found it a bit fun to play the devil's advocate - perhaps, in hindsight, a bit too fun - although when the fun subsided and I began to feel myself creeping toward mean-spiritedness, I decided to withdraw. Football can be fun if you give yourself to it - at least til someone gets injured - but in many ways it's the antithesis of civility and poetry.<br /><br />3) I wanted to express my honest belief that in the ultimate, universal sense nothing we do or say means anything. So I wasn't merely playing devil's advocate - I believed what I said was true, from the most objective perspective. But I didn't fully admit that from a terestrial, more human perspective, I also believe words and their meanings very much matter. I think the rules created by past generations often inhibit creativity - though I heartily believe they are useful, and sometimes too little discipline can be as harmful to poetry as too much.<br /><br />Thank you all for a lively, instructive discussion. It has been a learning/growing experince for me in more than one way. I still believe all I said is true in various senses - but I believe much of what everyone else said is true as well. Ah, blessed paradox!John B. Burroughshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11497208622485346132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5641117771707843067.post-72765891557520655102009-04-18T08:15:00.000-04:002009-04-18T08:15:00.000-04:00Well, since it was my comment that a particular po...Well, since it was my comment that a particular poem was a senryu and not a haiku that stimulated the original discussion (this time), I suppose that I should comment here. (although Joshua <A HREF="http://clevelandpoetics.blogspot.com/2008/11/pd-haiku-contest-perpetuates-5-7-5-myth.html" REL="nofollow">commented on "what's a haiku"</A> in far more detail six months ago.)<br /><BR>I found the discussion a little disappointing; although there were some insightful asides, the overall argument was basically "haiku, senryu, limerick, no difference, who cares?" <br /><BR>I will submit, however, that there is a joy in using words precisely; that in a poem about (say) the birds singing outside my window this morning, it does make a difference whether they are swifts or finches. <br /><BR>More than that, however, words are a tool we use for vision. If you don't have words, you can't really see the difference between a finch and a swallow; you don't really have the tool see the bird clearly. Using the word "haiku" to mean "any short three-line poem" and saying "senryu, yeah, same thing" ends up devaluing, even erasing the senryu, which is, actually, a form that I personally like. If you don't know or care what a senryu is, you can't really appreciate one if you read it. Something valuable has been lost.<br /><BR>=====================<br /><BR>(CAPTTCHA word for me is "unsivegu". Definition: sivegu, a Japanese form of poetry using a 5-7-5 syllable count, on the subject of giant monsters (daikuju). Must include a flower reference in the second or third line. Unsivegu, a form of poetry which is in any meter other than 5-7-5 syllables, and contains no mention of giant monsters in any fashion. Flower references are optional.)Geoffrey A. Landishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04518496779546782434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5641117771707843067.post-48789200228836641492009-04-18T02:44:00.000-04:002009-04-18T02:44:00.000-04:00ha i get some cool word verifications too. karmi...ha i get some cool word verifications too. karmic, perhaps. or random...<br />the one right here: inablyp<br /><br />all one word, in a blypPressin Onhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02875715937095082907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5641117771707843067.post-10129764313016095592009-04-17T09:30:00.000-04:002009-04-17T09:30:00.000-04:00Correcting the corrector for the crime of correcti...Correcting the corrector for the crime of correcting<br /><br />That's also crime in my mind<br /><br />First I thought Aristotle was a policeman<br /><br />Then I thought *I* was the Jazz Policeman in the playground of improv<br /><br />You look at the tile one way, and it projects outward. You look at it another way, it pops back in<br /><br />They say Zen is a con game designed to stifle inquiry, Ouroboros<br /><br />the end<br /><br />(my 'word verification' captcha is 'subtli' -> proof of universal mind?)ladyhttp://thecitypoetry.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5641117771707843067.post-30540143582782029842009-04-17T07:51:00.000-04:002009-04-17T07:51:00.000-04:00"Men and Their Boring Arguments"
One man on his o..."Men and Their Boring Arguments"<br /><br />One man on his own can be quite good fun<br />But don’t go drinking with two -<br />They’ll probably have an argument<br />And take no notice of you.<br /><br />What makes men so tedious<br />Is the need to show off and compete.<br />They’ll bore you to death for hours and hours<br />Before they’ll admit defeat.<br /><br />It often happens at dinner-parties<br />Where brother disputes with brother<br />And we can’t even talk among ourselves<br />Because we’re not next to each other.<br /><br />Some men like to argue with women -<br />Don’t give them a chance to begin.<br />You won’t be allowed to change the subject<br />Until you have given in.<br /><br />A man with the bit between his teeth<br />Will keep you up half the night<br />And the only way to get some sleep<br />Is to say, ‘I expect you’re right.’<br /><br />I expect you’re right, my dearest love.<br />I expect you’re right, my friend.<br />These boring arguments make no difference<br />To anything in the end<br /><br />-Wendy CopeJohn B. Burroughshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11497208622485346132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5641117771707843067.post-46820134586592432572009-04-16T17:31:00.000-04:002009-04-16T17:31:00.000-04:00Well said.
Interestingly, the captcha I have to t...Well said.<br /><br />Interestingly, the captcha I have to type is to post this comment is "peerease."John B. Burroughshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11497208622485346132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5641117771707843067.post-6631408220939730712009-04-16T11:20:00.000-04:002009-04-16T11:20:00.000-04:00I like what you say about fear anger. Like when yo...I like what you say about fear anger. Like when you almost get into a car accident, and then you get mad because you're scared. I don't know but I like alot fo haikus.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08316381524662447651noreply@blogger.com